Ep #172: Asking for the Support You Need: A Widows Unfiltered Interview with Pam Demke

Welcome to The Widowed Mom Podcast, episode 172, Widows Unfiltered: An Interview with Pam Demke.

Welcome to The Widowed Mom Podcast, the only podcast that offers a proven process to help you work through your grief, to grow, evolve, and create a future you can truly look forward to. Here’s your host, Master Certified life coach, grief expert, widow, and mom, Krista St-Germain.

Hey there, welcome to another episode of the podcast. What’s good? What’s happening in your neighborhood? So, I promised you an update, my daughter left for Costa Rica and so far so good. It was not nearly as emotional as I expected it to be and I am confident that that is because I have been letting myself feel all the feelings for I don’t even know how long, since I found out about the trip. I did not resist them. I did not try to coach myself out of them. I did not try to think positive thoughts.

I just let myself feel how I felt and it’s so much easier that way. So, everything’s fine, she made it no problem. She left me the sweetest post-it notes all over the house. I’m still finding them which was such a delight. She’s just so creative and crafty and she hid them in all these places. Apparently my son helped her and he told me I’m going to be finding them for a long, long time. So that’s been super fun.

So, thanks to those of you who are sending her and me a good mojo I actually got several emails and I just really appreciate it. And even if you didn’t email me but you just thought of us, I really do appreciate it. So, all is well. I will keep you posted on her adventures but I think she’s going to have a great time and it’s going to be a good learning experience and it’s good for me too, it’s good growth for me.

So, let’s get into this week’s episode. I know that I say this a lot because I do love all of my clients but I really, really love Pam. She’s one of those people that when you meet her you cannot help but love her. She is hysterical. She is honest. She is authentic. She calls it like she sees it. And she is just – sometimes I literally pinch myself. I cannot believe I have created a business where I get to work with people like Pam in ways that change their lives and feel amazing to me. And I get to have a business where I make money doing it. It’s the best thing ever.

So, I hope you love Pam, I hope you relate to her story. I hope you use Pam’s story as evidence again that it’s not about being some sort of special unicorn. It’s just about being willing to be honest and ask for support and do the work. And when you do that you can change your own life. And that’s what Pam did. So, I’ll let her tell you all about it. Let’s get into today’s interview with my dear friend and client, Pam.

                                                                                                                   

Krista: Alright, welcome to another episode of the podcast, Pam, I’ve been looking forward to this one. Not kidding.

Pam: Okay, hi.

Krista: Hi. Okay. So, let’s start by just having you tell us a little bit about Pam, who are you, tell us a little?

Pam: Well, my name is Pam Demke. And I live in Southern Manitoba, Canada. I live on a property which is gorgeous. I love it. I’m going to be 57 in a little while. And I have two grown children, Emerson is 28 today and Alicia is 25. They are my unwavering rocks. They are just rockstar children. As youngsters they weren’t but hey, they’ve grown up.

Krista: You’re giving us hope.

Pam: Yeah, I’m giving you hope. Like I’ve said before in coaching, you can’t screw up your kids, just keep going. But I do technical accounting for a living. And yeah, I am almost living my life.

Krista: Almost living your life, here you are, okay.

Pam: Almost living life, yeah.

Krista: So, tell us a little bit about how you became a widow, how did you end up even here, what was going on in your life, what happened?

Pam: Okay. So, Albert and I, well Albert is my partner, we knew each other for 14 years, together for 13. He was my partner and we owned an autobody collision shop together. And he was in the shop loading up a snowmobile because he tinkered on other people’s stuff all the time. And he tweaked his back. Now, normally he can live through that, that’s not a problem, or live through that, sorry.

Krista: You would think, yeah.

Pam: Yeah. And anyways, so the next day he drove himself to the ER and it was just getting worse and worse, he couldn’t even get back into his truck properly. So, I went back to the shop and I picked him up to bring him back home. And during the night he just had an episode of just screaming in pain. So, we live 20 miles from any town around here. So that was the longest 20 minutes to get an ambulance out here, and then brought to the hospital.

The next day at midafternoon, the doctor came in and just said, “No, the pain is all in your head, go home.” So, Albert’s not one to complain, super tough guy, very healthy, but that just, I’m not going back. So, a couple more days we went and got more pain meds. And then seven days later, it was a Wednesday, January 23^rd, I took him into the ER in the evening, it was a horrible snowstorm, just horrible. I almost hit the ditch twice. And brought him into the ER and they got working on him right aways.

And he was starting to look better and I went to turn him and he had a massive heart attack, all the blood clots in his brain released. And they rushed to his heart, they did CPR for 23 minutes and there’s an image I’ll never forget. All the medical shows that we have on now is just a constant reminder. But anyways, yeah, so he died that night very quickly. And the doctor had gone home before this, came back and gave me a huge hug. And the doctor was almost crying and just saying, “This should have never happened, should have never happened.”

Nine months later we finally get the autopsy and find out that it was just a urinary tract information that had gone septic. And so, doctor error and yeah, lots of forgiveness around that but yeah, and then the rest is history.

Krista: I feel like in some ways, some of the things you said remind me so much of Hugo. I literally last night was just watching – I can’t even remember the name of the show but I like it really well. And it occurred to me after the CPR scene was over that I think that might have been the first CPR scene that I watched where I didn’t remember until it was over the whole CPR experience with Hugo. And it’s been almost six years. And after it was over I was like, “Wow, I didn’t even think about.”

But I didn’t go to the hospital in my brain. Yeah, I never calculated the exact minutes but I related to that. And then also the same thing with doctor error being involved. Yes, it was a drunk driver but the doctors made a mistake and that ultimately was a huge part of why he died, yeah.

Pam: Yeah. And I remember you mentioning that too because I was having a hard time just accepting doctor error because in Canada you don’t sue.

Krista: Did they put that on the death certificate, did they put doctor error?

Pam: They didn’t put that anywhere. I’m thinking because they can’t but the same day that the ME office picked Albert up from the hospital they called me and said, “This should have never ever happened.” And I guess there had been quite a few errors in the hospital lately. And they just said, “This will be a teaching moment for that hospital.” But whether it has been or not I’m going to still write a letter of concern, once I can do it from a third party standpoint, yeah.

Krista: And did you say in Canada you can’t sue?

Pam: You don’t sue.

Krista: You just don’t.

Pam: You can’t win. You can’t win. They have $35 billion in their kitty so to speak. And they pay very little out of that every year, yeah.

Krista: Okay, interesting. It works totally differently.

Pam: Yeah, you can’t win. I know, I know, but no, it’s yeah, it’s very – they might get a slap on the hand. But in most cases they just carry on as always.

Krista: Right. What was life like before that all of this happened?

Pam: Well, it was great. Yeah. No, yeah, he was my redemption love. So I was in a marriage that I left. And it wasn’t the best marriage, it was a little bit on the rough side. Anyways, so I left and me and Albert…

Krista: I think you’re being very kind. I feel like you just censored yourself a little bit. We’re going to let it go but I just want you to know I see you.

Pam: Yeah. Well, I have a well in my basement and I stay out of that room.

Krista: Yeah. Okay, got you.

Pam: Yeah. So anyways, it wasn’t a great marriage. Yeah, so me and Albert just got each other. It’s your redemption love and I know that you know what I mean by that.

Krista: Yeah, I totally do.

Pam: Yeah. And yeah, we were just clipping along. We were getting to the point, were planning the future properly, and working great together in the company. And that was his dream, not mine because I have my own company. But yeah, and I was still throughout this whole time I was going through a horrific divorce. The divorce itself lasted 13 years.

Krista: And it’s just, that has got to be a record.

Pam: It is actually, it is. And I got my divorce four months after Albert died. So, bittersweet to say the least but I did find out that my divorce along with, I think, three or four other people and I know the other girl personally, we changed the laws in Manitoba around how long it will take to get a divorce.

Krista: Great.

Pam: Yeah, so my pain is their gain which is great. Yeah, it wasn’t cheap.

Krista: It won’t happen to the next person. Yeah, no doubt, 13 years.

Pam: Yeah. So, I always thought I’d have a celebration when I got divorced. No, I just left it.

Krista: Do you think, would you have married Albert if your divorce had gone through beforehand?

Pam: Yeah. At the beginning because we were both divorced, we both had left our spouses, we always said, “Never again, never ever getting married again.” Because mine was so messy, but we did even fool around with last names. So, I always like my last name, Demke because it’s rare to have that last name in this area. Actually, it’s a rare name anyways. And then so, and his last name was Fehr. So, we always just, well, we’ll be De Fehr.

Krista: De Fehr.

Pam: De Fehr.

Krista: I think culturally that’s so different. In the US you don’t contemplate – I remember wanting to marry Hugo so much. And him always telling me, he didn’t really care. He was happy to marry me if marrying me was what I wanted but he was like, “In Canada, second marriages aren’t a thing.” You just don’t have to do that, partner is common. And then but I was like, “No, I want to be married.” And then I wanted his last name and also less common. So, this idea of shared last name is so fun. So, fun.

Pam: Well, in Quebec especially, they don’t really share last names.

Krista: At all, yeah, not at all.

Pam: Yeah, so it is funny though.

Krista: Yeah. And he always told me, he was like, “You’ll regret taking my name, it’s the biggest pain in the ass.” And he’s right, it is.

Pam: Is it?

Krista: Well, people can’t handle the hyphen. They literally can’t handle the hyphen. They spaz out, they can’t handle it. Here they only do periods, like St. period, but it’s St-Germain. So, when I go anywhere with a Wi-Fi password in a hotel, oh dear, when it’s your last name nobody can ever spell it. Credit card statements can’t get it right. I happily remember him whenever that happens, I hear his voice saying, “You don’t want my name.” And I’m like, “Yeah, okay, I get it. Anyway.”

Pam: He’s still being a pain, right?

Krista: He is and I love that. And I’m never giving up this last name, I’m keeping it forever, I don’t care what happens. Okay, so let’s fast forward then. So, you had both owned the business together at that point, you just were working your own business?

Pam: Yeah.

Krista: And then what brought you to coaching, where were you when you decided to reach out to me, what inspired that? Walk us through that.

Pam: Okay. So, I was getting coached out of The Life Coach School because I was dealing with another problem that Albert told me, “Either you figure this out or you don’t mention it anymore.” So, I decided to figure it out with a life coach. And she became quite a good friend. Anyways, so when she found out the day after that Albert had died then she right aways mentioned you because of The Life Coach School and stuff like that.

So right aways she gave me your name, she gave me your podcast and stuff and which sometimes the stars just align and you get these connections. Had I never been with The Life Coach School or been coached, sometimes things just line up. And so, then I binge listened over, and over, and over all your podcasts. And because I was familiar with the coaching I considered myself lucky that I could comprehend it. Because the brain fog is real, baby.

Krista: Was yours pretty intense? Yeah.

Pam: It was terrible. But yeah, so that’s how I came upon you. And then you were mentioning that you were getting up into group coaching and stuff. And then I just applied right aways, right aways. And then we had our interview and I had the worst cellphone service ever.

Krista: I don’t remember that.

Pam: Oh, my goodness, I couldn’t hear half the questions and you couldn’t hear half my answers. And it was just awful. I figured, I’m never going to get in, I’m never going to, but I did.

Krista: Referral from Britney saved the day. That’s funny. And you have an interesting perspective then having worked with a coach one-on-one before. And then coming into a group, I’m curious, what was it like to be part of a group compared to doing one-on-one work with someone?

Pam: Well, for me it’s great because I can get very quiet. And a person could have a hard time coaching me for 45 minutes. So yeah, so then going from that to group coaching it was nice to just be able to sit back and listen to the other widows just knowing that there were other widows your age out there and a lot younger was a blessing. But just sitting there and listening and going, I had no idea I had so many issues until you start hearing everybody else’s.

And then you go, “Yeah, I get that. That’s in my life too.” And it’s a wonderful thing, group coaching. The single coaching one-on-one was great also to get me started and everything. But just the group coaching especially, well, I only know it through the widows. But just seeing their problems and their challenges, it helps you phenomenally. It’s just great.

Krista: Yeah, I’m so glad that you say that too because yeah, that’s how I experienced you in coaching is you were on so many calls. I see your name on lots of calls but not always putting yourself in the spotlight but still participating, listening, learning. And there’s something so – it’s already such an isolating experience anyway to lose your spouse when it’s not happening, or partner, when it’s not happening to any of your friends.

But then even worse is that we don’t talk about all the struggles so much because we don’t want to burden other people. Or we don’t want them to think certain things about us, or whatever, we go internal. And then it’s so easy to make our own experience mean that there’s something wrong with us. All the things we’re struggling with aren’t happening to anybody else, they’re just, we’re the special snowflake that is damaged. And then it’s so validating to see other women I think say something that could have come out of your mouth.

If you were being honest you were like, “Well, that’s exactly what I’m struggling with.” It’s not just me, I see it. Yeah, I just find it to be very validating when you see yourself and your own problem reflected in someone else’s life and you feel less alone and yeah.

Pam: Absolutely. And we all know older widows, we know older widows. But yeah, I was the first of my kind. And yeah, and my friends and family did not know what to do with me. They literally did not know what to do with me. And looking back I feel really bad not because of anything I did but I can feel for them now. I didn’t put them in any positions because they’re all very great people. But they are so happy that I am getting coached and that I was in the program. I was in the program for two and a half years, my goodness.

Krista: She’s an OG, you all.

Pam: Yeah, I’m an OG so yeah. So, they were just happy that I was getting help and that they didn’t have to say the right thing. And they didn’t have to solve my problems. They didn’t have to figure anything out. They just had to sometimes just sit and listen. And sometimes just forget even that I lost Albert. You get into conversations, my empathy I feel has just skyrocketed towards other people’s problems. It’s just so much easier for me to sympathize with them and to just sit there and listen, not try to fix.

So that’s a big thing is just sit there and listen, not try to fix and believe me they are very grateful for this program.

Krista: I’d like to meet some of your family someday. That’s good. So, I like to imagine that people are listening to this podcast, widows who are pretty – I mean they’re of course in all stages and places. But I specifically sometimes think about the women who are new to grief, who it’s fresh for. And knowing that those women are listening, what would you tell them? If you could go back and maybe talk to yourself even early in your grief, what do you know now that you would tell the old you or you would tell that woman who it’s just so fresh for?

Pam: Yeah, I’ve thought about this question a lot. It has come up in coaching and in masters and stuff like that. And I struggle with this question because I use work as a buffer. So, I didn’t take any time off and I still haven’t really. And so, I think what I would tell them is, be kind to yourself. Give yourself time. Don’t rush around. Just people are there to help you, they will help you, just let them. Stop saying no to other people. And don’t use work or any other activity as a distraction.

Just take time for yourself because I think that’s invaluable. It’s just something I haven’t done. I am learning how to relax which I find it really hard because I do love what I do. But I show up and this has come out in coaching very often, I show up in two ways in my world, either the public Pam or the private Pam. And the public Pam is very much out there and going to work, getting everything done, still hitting all the deadlines. And the private Pam come home, she’s a wreck.

Krista: Two sides of a coin, yeah.

Pam: Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of people have that. So, to that new widow too I would just say, “You know what? Your private person is worth knowing. And other people around you really, really do want to get to know you and don’t be afraid to be that private person. Show your emotion out in public. Because yeah, somebody has a hard time with it, that’s them, that’s not you.” So, if people ask you how you’re doing and you burst into tears, that’s how you’re doing.

Krista: Well, that’s how you’re doing.

Pam: You asked, but yeah, so that’s my basic thing is take time for yourself and just be your original authentic self.

Krista: I love that so much. And I do think that it’s true that almost everyone in some way or another struggles with that. We worry about what other people will think of us, we want them to think certain things. We’re afraid we’ll bring them down or that they’ll see the real us. And then all they see is public Pam and public Pam isn’t authentic Pam so they miss out on authentic Pam, private Pam. Yeah, so good, yeah.

Pam: Yeah. And she’s pretty cool.

Krista: She’s pretty fantastic. I’ve met her in real life, she came to my house one time.

Pam: I cried.

Krista: Well, so did I, it’s fine. If there’s something about working with people online, I mean you already feel like a close connection but then I don’t know, yeah, seeing, meeting people in real life, that was having that celebration event at my house was one of the most meaningful things I’ve ever done. After you all got out of the limo, so we had this event for those of you who don’t know what I’m talking about. I invited, I think I said I was going to do five and then I invited 11. So many people applied.

But I said, “We’re going to do a celebration event, we’re going to pamper you, food, makeup, hair, photography, and I brought in a videographer and everybody told their stories. And then we went out to dinner at the restaurant that Hugo and I got married at. And we took, was it an 18 passenger limo?

Pam: Yeah, something like that.

Krista: And after everyone got out of the limo and we dropped them off at their hotel room, I had a moment I just couldn’t even wrap my brain around. It was just so full circle for me, I was an emotional – I was a mess, Pam but in the best way.

Pam: Well, it was a big day though. It was a big day.

Krista: It was a big day, yeah.

Pam: Yeah, for all of us. And you made it happen. So, it all hinged around this program which is you. And who wouldn’t get emotional about that?

Krista: And it was almost like – I mean yes, it’s me but it’s also everyone in the program who actively participates. It wouldn’t work if it was just me. But it was going back to that point where after Hugo died and I was just so sad and just, I mean you know. It was like he got taken from me, same thing, taken unnecessarily. It shouldn’t have been that way. So sad. That was my experience. And so, I don’t think, it was just so strange because back then I could have never imagined being here. You know what I mean?

And that’s what made it so almost surreal in my brain, it’s like that actually happened and now all of these amazing women just spent the day with me. And they’re all powerfully moving in the direction that they want their lives to go because of this community and coaching experience that I created because my husband died. What is happening? It was just really cool.

Pam: It was a pleasure.

Krista: So, what are some of the things that you came to coaching for? And what actually resulted from coaching? I know you talked about how your family was happy you were doing it and you felt more empathetic, or feel more empathetic. What else has shifted?

Pam: Well, I guess after Albert died, and I’ve always had a tendency for this but when I came to you I really did not want to be on this Earth anymore. And I was taking it to a next level and doing some pretty risky things. And I had had those tendencies years ago, so this wasn’t new to me. It was just like exclamation point, exclamation point, Albert’s dead, the kids are out of the house. Nobody’s around. So yeah, and the kids are well on their way with partners and lives of their own.

So, then I figured really, what does it matter? So yeah, got coached on that a lot. Thank you very much.

Krista: That’s what I do remember from our first call. I don’t remember the cellphone service but I remember thinking, we are making this happen.

Pam: Yeah, that’s the case. Yeah, so really that’s the main one that I was struggling with back then. I don’t struggle with it now which thank God I don’t. And I think that if I ever would come around to thoughts of suicide again, I think I would handle it much better. I would have more tools in my toolkit to use, to look at things, and I could reach out to you guys and to others which I didn’t have before. So that was really huge.

And then yeah, the closing down of 180, of our business, wow, I remember our conversation and again this was early on when there weren’t that many people getting coached. So, we had lots of coaching time with you. And just even the thought of closing the business, just failure, marked failure, marked failure. I just, I could not get around that. Because you so want to keep it open for Albert’s memory, it was his passion, it’s something he always wanted, brand-new building which we only were in there for four years.

But through coaching and then talking to one of my financial advisors, it just didn’t make sense to keep it open. COVID was starting so we closed June 2^nd, 2020. So yeah, by the time I had closed down or gave the guys six weeks’ notice, me and you had talked about it so much. I no longer had any guilt, no thoughts of failure and just this is what I’m doing and see you later. And there still has been no guilt, no nothing. It’s been completely, I lost a lot of money by doing that but I really don’t care.

Because my mental state now is so much better. And physically I’m so much better than when I was jumping through those hoops for the collision shop. Yeah, so that was huge.

Krista: Yeah. I don’t think you’ve ever coached on it, I think it’s just something I know because I pay attention. But can you talk about buying the lap pool because that was good? I could tell that was good.

Pam: Yes, it was big. Okay, so I bought a lap pool or an endless pool, whatever, some people call it a hot tub. I just refuse to call it that because that’s not what it is. Anyways, so I live in a really big house. I live in a beautiful two and a half-story house, it’s over 100 years old. And Albert and I always had a dream. His dream was to have a three car garage because he has so many toys. And my dream was to have an endless pool on top of that garage and then enclosed and everything.

So yeah, last summer I was talking to Len who’s one of my best girlfriends even though he’s a guy. And he gets me to buy all kinds of things. And he loves spending my money. No, God bless him, I was his best man at his wedding. He’s awesome.

Krista: I love it.

Pam: But anyways, so I purchased this endless pool. And one phone call and he, “Yeah, it’s yours.” And just like, “Dang. Okay, here we go.” So anyways, so construction is booming out here so it only ended up getting installed this last March. And I’ve got a beautiful room for it. And sure enough, fill it up, it has a hole.

Krista: I didn’t know that. It had a hole.

Pam: Yeah. One of the valves was completely cracked. So, it lost six inches of water the first day.

Krista: No. Indoors?

Pam: Yeah. I have a crawl space under it. So, it just went into there.

Krista: I missed that part.

Pam: What’s my luck? But anyways, so I have my dream. I’m not a dreamer. I am a very realistic person. I would love to be a dreamer but this is one dream realized. I love swimming. I had my nationals and everything. And I had not swam in decades. So yeah, so now I am swimming and feeling better and I still hate getting wet.

Krista: Which unfortunately we can’t swim without, annoying.

Pam: Yeah. But no, it’s a great addition. And again, no guilt. Years ago, I would have just regretted spending the money. But banks are there for a reason. You’ve just got to use them.

Krista: And that’s from my perspective what I was air fist pumping, chanting your name from a distance for is because I saw that as just such, Pam’s putting herself first. Seeing how hard you work, how much you gave your business with Albert, how much you’ve given your own business, how much you give your kids, just always. And honestly how much work your property is. It’s always doing, and your dogs, it’s always doing things for others. And so, to me to have you do something for you I was just yes, yes, that is huge.

Pam: Thank you. I did another thing for me just three or four weeks ago. I bought a brand new truck.

Krista: You did? Good for you. Okay, I’ve got to see pictures.

Pam: Again, it was, I went into work, I broke my foot last year. I was in a cast for four months. And my other truck was a standard. So, my foot never healed properly so for me to clutch that truck, it was getting very painful and dangerous.

Krista: Yes, what a mess, yeah.

Pam: So, I went into work one day and I just said, “I’ve got to get a different truck”, blah, blah, blah. Len phones the salesguy at one of the local dealers, “Yeah, we’ve got a truck.” So that was Monday, went for a test drive, Tuesday noon I bought it. So again, Len.

Krista: Yeah, but think about – I mean because I know we coached on something like you undercharging people in your business. Again, always putting other people’s wants, desires, ‘needs’. And so, it just makes me super happy to see you prioritizing what you want and getting it, right?

Pam: It is my money and I can afford it and banks are there for a reason.

Krista: And we only live once and so why torture ourselves with a truck we can barely drive, or why not get an endless pool? Yeah.

Pam: I need to, it’s been fun.

Krista: Yeah, I mean and I’ve never been in one but I don’t understand how people are confusing it with a hot tub. But anyway, I digress, because the water’s coming towards you so that you can swim laps.

Pam: Yeah, but it does have three seats with jets on the back end. So, it does simulate a hot tub.

Krista: So, you also can sit in it and enjoy it if you want.

Pam: But for a hot tub you usually have it a lot warmer than when you’re swimming.

Krista: Yeah, because you wouldn’t want it that hot.

Pam: No, you wouldn’t want it that hot. So, if anybody’s coming over they have to give me at least 12 hours’ notice so that I can put it up by six degrees.

Krista: I’ve got you, Celsius no less.

Pam: Yeah, Celsius, yes.

Krista: We have to do the conversion, I love it. So, what did we miss? Was there anything you wanted to talk about that we missed?

Pam: I don’t know. I’ve just learnt so much. The gap versus gain is huge for me. It makes you, when you actually sit down and think what the gap versus gain is, I have gained so much. And I’m not looking at the gap as much. It’s just that is one lesson that’s huge for me. And too, the manuals for other people, it’s amazing how many manuals we have for others. And right now, I’m working on, Emerson is getting married in the middle of August.

And I’m working on not having my manual for them. It’s very hard. I’m a very opinionated person. And both my kids have a lot of the same traits as me. And I would like them to be able to move through life lowering those traits or smoothing those traits out to make it a little easier on them because yeah, we’re all pretty hot sometimes.

Krista: It does change your relationships though when you’ve realized, I have these expectations of people and it’s not actually helping me.

Pam: Yeah. And you get less bothered by people now, or I do. I can leave things and it’s not a problem. Normally I would have been furious at a lot of things. And I just have an easier time, I just leave it, it doesn’t bother me anymore. And I do have boundaries for certain people and I have cut certain people out of my life. And I just have no guilt about it and I just, I’m fine. They might not be fine with me but I don’t care.

Krista: That is their model.

Pam: That’s their model, yeah.

Krista: I love it. Well, if you’ve never heard of what Pam is talking about, I will link in the show notes if you want to learn more about gap versus gain, or the manual, for sure because I have podcast episodes on both. I love you, Pam Demke.

Pam: Yes, I love you too, Krista.

Krista: I’m going to miss you so much.

Pam: St dash Germain.

Krista: St dot, dash, hyphen, who knows? Nobody can spell it or pronounce it and Hugo is laughing at me and it’s fine.

Pam: Yeah. Well, it’s been a pure pleasure being an OG.

Krista: Once an OG always an OG, so keep in touch with me, yeah?

Pam: Absolutely.

Krista: Okay, alright, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Pam: You bet, love you lots.

Krista: Okay, love you more. Bye.

Pam: Goodbye.

                                                                                                                   

If you like what you’ve been hearing on this podcast and want to create a future you can truly get excited about after the loss of your spouse, I invite you to join my Mom Goes On coaching program. It’s small group coaching just for widowed moms like you where I’ll help you figure out what’s holding you back and give you the tools and support you need so that you can move forward with confidence.

Please don’t settle for a new normal that’s less than you deserve. Go to coachingwithkrista.com and click work with me for details and the next steps. I can’t wait to meet you.